replacing sanitation hoses on IP 45

I have had a nightmare job done by a boatyard in the Chesapeake Bay. I asked for the sanitation hoses to be replaced and four months later I got the boat back from the yard. The longest run of hose is from the aft head through a vented loop behind the sink in the aft head, through a diverter valve under a sole and then forward to the holding tank, in front of the mast and under the sole in the forward cabin. Island Packet uses one and a half inch rubber sanitation hose from trident. Because it was so hard to replace the hose, the boat yard did not bother with the discharge line from the head through the vented loop and to the diverter valve. They left that in place. They did not even remove the hose that was attached to the diverter valve going forward to the holding tank. They just cut that hose where it was accessible under the sole in front of the fuel tank, then added a reducing fitting and placed a one and a quarter inch flexible pvc hose through the bilge (just hanging there) to the holding tank. Now I have researched and according to Nigel Calder in "Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual" ABYC standards and international convention uses one and a half inch inner diameter hose for all discharge lines. It seems to me that using inferior hose will increase the chances of failure in the near future.

Taking shortcuts did not prevent this boat yard from charging $6,000 for the job. Now they are telling me that it would be an "upgrade" to bring it back to factory specs. I talked to Island Packet and they recommended inch and a half hose. Now this boat yard tells me that they talked to an engineer at Island Packet who said that it is ok to use one and a quarter inch hose. Can anyone weigh in on this dispute?

selapinel,

First - Yipes I am very sorry - $6000. The hose is about $8/per foot. Even if they used 50 feet that's about $400. If they charged $100/hr for labor they charged for about 56 hrs, minus the cost of the hose.

Second - The old hose should have been removed and replaced as it was originally installed. Yes it is a nasty, hard job. I know, I personally have done job, and it is no more than a 16hr job for a beginner - like me. A good mechanic should do this in about 8 hrs I would think. My estimates may be low but they charged for you for at least 7 days work.

Third - It seems like they have enough of your money (profit) in this job to make it right without charging another nickel and still screw you.

Third - Please share the name of this wonderful boatyard so we can all get such good service????

Sorry for being so blunt - I may be missing something and someone can correct me.

George
S/V Delicia IP 40

Thanks George,

The owners of the boat yard admitted that the work done was sub standard, and last week they said they would fix the issues and bring the sanitation hoses up to "original quality and specifications" under warranty and at no cost to us. Then on Wednesday a newly hired manager came on the boat and sent us an email saying that inch and a quarter flex hose was ok and acceptable and that they would charge us to replace it with inch and a half hose of the same quality as Island Packet originally installed. They called it an upgrade. Then he added an estimate of $9,700 to complete the work.

The problem is that they actually charged me $25,000 (yes twenty five thousand) to do various jobs on the boat including changing light bulbs from halogen to LED and putting a Windex up at the top of the mast. As an example, the courtesy light that comes on as you enter the boat that is activated by a switch at the companionway was not working. When you turned on the switch, two of the three lights would come on but the light at the companionway ladder did not come on. This is the light closest to the switch. They got the light to come on, but charged me $600.00 to fix it. So piracy still exists in the Chesapeake Bay. My mistake was trying to be honest, I paid the $25,000 bill and then tried to contest it.

Now I think that I will have to sue them for damages. Yes they also scratched the cabin sole in several places while trying to replace the sanitation hoses.

I am talking to a lawyer, but I was also hoping that I could get some recommendations from any owners regarding attorneys who have experience in recovering fees from boat yards for sub standard work and damages done to a boat while work was contracted in the boat yard.

Is there anybody here who thinks it is ok to use smaller inner diameter hose, and to use flexible PVC for the longest run of sanitation hose, and to just drape it in the bilge unsupported? Please if I am wrong about this then let me know.

In doing the work they changed the diverter valve around, lost the tag that labels which direction to turn the diverter valve, and moved the vented loop for the macerator discharge which is in the forward hanging locker. When the forward head was flushed, holding tank effluent discharged from the macerator's vented loop and filled the floor of the hanging locker and soiled all the clothing and items that were in the hanging locker. The sewage then overflowed onto the sole of the forward cabin and soiled an oriental rug that we had covering the floor.

what a nightmare story, a lesson to all of us. keep us posted
keith

Thanks George,

The owners of the boat yard admitted that the work done was sub standard, and last week they said they would fix the issues and bring the sanitation hoses up to "original quality and specifications" under warranty and at no cost to us. Then on Wednesday a newly hired manager came on the boat and sent us an email saying that inch and a quarter flex hose was ok and acceptable and that they would charge us to replace it with inch and a half hose of the same quality as Island Packet originally installed. They called it an upgrade. Then he added an estimate of $9,700 to complete the work.

The problem is that they actually charged me $25,000 (yes twenty five thousand) to do various jobs on the boat including changing light bulbs from halogen to LED and putting a Windex up at the top of the mast. As an example, the courtesy light that comes on as you enter the boat that is activated by a switch at the companionway was not working. When you turned on the switch, two of the three lights would come on but the light at the companionway ladder did not come on. This is the light closest to the switch. They got the light to come on, but charged me $600.00 to fix it. So piracy still exists in the Chesapeake Bay. My mistake was trying to be honest, I paid the $25,000 bill and then tried to contest it.

Now I think that I will have to sue them for damages. Yes they also scratched the cabin sole in several places while trying to replace the sanitation hoses.

I am talking to a lawyer, but I was also hoping that I could get some recommendations from any owners regarding attorneys who have experience in recovering fees from boat yards for sub standard work and damages done to a boat while work was contracted in the boat yard.

Is there anybody here who thinks it is ok to use smaller inner diameter hose, and to use flexible PVC for the longest run of sanitation hose, and to just drape it in the bilge unsupported? Please if I am wrong about this then let me know.

In doing the work they changed the diverter valve around, lost the tag that labels which direction to turn the diverter valve, and moved the vented loop for the macerator discharge which is in the forward hanging locker. When the forward head was flushed, holding tank effluent discharged from the macerator's vented loop and filled the floor of the hanging locker and soiled all the clothing and items that were in the hanging locker. The sewage then overflowed onto the sole of the forward cabin and soiled an oriental rug that we had covering the floor.

When I say nightmare, I really mean nightmare. I originally took the boat up January 2013, and I got it back in May, 2013, and I have still been trying to negotiate this in good faith.

If they do not fix it right, I do plan on posting more details including the name of the boatyard.
My wife actually does not trust that they can do it right and prefers to just sue them. Then we can take the boat to another more reputable yard and get it fixed. Any advice I can get will be greatly appreciated.

selapinel,

Here is my opinion on the specific question you asked, without all the ranting and venting.

I don't think it is correct to leave the hose unsupported because of the mechanical loads on it when it is full of liquid swinging around in a sea way. Secondly it would be way better if it were routed in a way that it drained naturally to the tank, that way the waste would not be accumulating in the hose causing it to stink prematurely.

The hose size is a harder question. If the hose is serving a macerating head, smaller is fine because the waste and paper are ground up. I use 1" on both our macerating toilets with out problem. Defender sells Triden sanitation hose in sizes as small as 5/8" but that doesn't mean it can be used for head discharge.

To get an expert opinion I would call Raritan in NJ. Their engineering department is very helpful. I would ask them specifically what size hose they recommend for their heads. I would note that all their manual heads have a 1.5 inch ID hose fitting.

Hope this helps.

George Meinke
S/V Delicia

Thanks George,

I will call Raritan. Do you know how I can find ABYC standards on sizing of discharge line? I agree that discharge line from a macerator can be smaller. However the line in question is a direct discharge line from the toilet that goes to the holding tank without an in line macerator. Because of its length and the fact that it will be very hard to have it self draining, my contention is that this line would need to be the best quality odor safe line on the boat. I have read that one and a half inch hose equal in quality to Trident 101 is required, and in fact this is what Island Packet uses at the factory. I believe that installing 1.25 inch inner diameter hose with thin walls is an invitation to failure within a short time that will require that I do the whole process of changing hoses sooner than would be necessary.

I appreciate your comment regarding unsupported hose with the added weight of effluent in it. I was worried about this also.

I am trying to remain balanced in getting information about this, as I hope that any information shared will be helpful to all owners of Island Packets. I am sorry if any of my post has sounded like ranting as this is not my intention. I do believe venting is necessary however (pun intended) and that 3/4 inch line is best.

Thanks Hayden. I noticed that you are in Rock Hall. I called Gratitude Marina and got a quote from them. They have done a number of Island Packets and I have heard good things about them. Would you stick with 1.5 inch hose? I was told that Jerry Swartz, an engineer at Island Packet said it was ok to use 1.25 inch hose, since it was easier to get that back in through the bulkheads.

Thanks for the links, I looked at the web site and at the products. I am impressed that you have tackled this job three times already. Mine is IP45-10, a 1996 boat that I bought new, and this is the first time I have replaced the sanitation hoses. The boat is 17 years old now and still has the original aluminum holding tank, but no signs of it leaking. The hoses had not failed they were just showing signs of age. There was no leak and no appreciable head odor.

We keep the boat in Hampton, Virginia, at the Salt Ponds. The work was done in Deltaville, VA. Though the distance is much longer, I may take the boat up to Rock Hall for service after this.
They did not use the Sea Land hoses, and replaced the longest run with 1.25 inch hose that is hanging unsupported in the bilge, forming a long loop forward to the holding tank. The hose is just lying in there on top of the bilge pump and the float switch.

As an aside, during this process I have learned quite a bit. It is interesting to me that Island Packet does not have a vented loop for the intake to the toilet, even though the through hull valve must necessarily remain open while the main engine runs, since the same valve serves as the intake for the engine as well as the intake for both heads. Also, the aft head does have a vented loop on the discharge line but the forward head does not. Good to be aware of these issues.

I value Hayden's experience and counsel in this, but here is another opinion.

I replaced the toilet and plumbing twice on my 35O and once on the 95' IP40. I have used the Dometic SeaLand Hose and fittings. I have also used the Trident Sani Shield and Bonjo plastic, 80 series industrial quality fittings and valves. My observations, having used both, is that the Bonjo Valves and fittings are way superior to any other, especially, Whale and Forespar, and Jabsco, etc. which have all leaked for me. And, while I agree that the SeaLand hose is excellent, it is very ridged compared to the Trident hose. So it is harder to install. I had to heat it to get the bends I needed and heat it to get it on fittings. One trick for getting it on fittings is to use Silicon Plumber's Grease - Lowes. It is the slipperiest stuff known to man.

Below is the web address for the valves and a paste from the
Defenders website.
www.banjovalves.com/?gclid=CLinqK2W9LkCFexDMgod4SYAGw

Trident Sani Shield Sanitation Hose - 1-1/2 Inches
Item # : 501477

As for head discharge - if it were a macerating head discharging over board or to a holding tank, to be again be macerated as it is pumped overboard, one inch will work. As Hayden suggests, if it is a manual head or a VacuFlush you should have 1 1/2.

With regard to the anti siphon loop on the raw water intake, I am not sure about the IP45 but on the IP40 there is only one in the rear, none in for the front head. I questioned that but the answer is that the toilet lip is above the water line in the front, so the factory didn't put one in. All is well with that I guess.

Here is the description of the ABYC standard which seems to apply, but it seems mostly interested in keeping the water out of the boat. ABYC Standard H-27 — Seacocks, Thru-Hull Fittings, and Drain Plugs www.abycinc.org/standards/purpose.cfm#H27

"This standard is a guide for the selection of materials, design, construction, and installation of seacocks, thru-hull connections, drain plugs, and other fittings that penetrate the hull at or below the maximum-heeled waterline."

This standard applies to all boats.


As for some authoritative guidance you might contact a surveyor. ( www.marinesurvey.org/ )They may have something to point to beyond, "two hose clamps no rust below the waterline....

Hope this helps

George

S/V Delicia