Upgrading Ground Tackle - recommendations???

Hello all! Looking for some backup/advice/recommendations on some upgrades I am planning for my ground-tackle.

Here's what I am working with: (on IP38-015)
Windlass: Original Simpson-Lawrence 555 manual windlass (Bulletproof...) - Wildcat to starboard, Gypsy-head to port...
Anchors: Bruce of UNK size to starboard and a CQR 35 to port.
Rode: 25 Feet of 5/16" BBB on the starboard anchor with about 250' of 1/2" to 5/8" 3 strand and 25 Feet of 5/16" Proof Coil (long link - ugghhh) on the port anchor with another 250' of 1/2" - 5/8" three strand with w/ a PLASTIC THIMBLE and HUGE SHACKLE connecting it to the chain...Just a guess - Port anchor has NEVER BEEN USED because the plastic thimble looks good as new.

My thoughts are as follows: (Keep in mind I'll be taking weekend to weeklong jaunts around the mid-atlantics and new england - so all-chain is probably not at this point necessary)

Main: Ditch the Bruce and upgrade to a ROCNA 25 as my main anchor removing the BBB in favor of G4 in 3/8", increasing my chain scope to 75', while adding 250' of 3/4" 3 strand nylon.
Back-up: Keep the CQR 35 as my back-up, and use 75" of G4 5/16" chain coupled to 200' of 5/8" 3 strand nylon.
Windlass: Less concerned about replacing this as it will likely outlive the boat. But open to suggestions - but my 12V systems may not be able to handle a big load like an electric windlass without some remediation...

So - I guess my question is this. Do I have a sound plan here? I know a lot of you advocate all-chain rode, but I just don't see the need for this cost in both expense and bow trim at this point...

Any recomendations, advice, or annecdotes would be greatly appreciated...

I like my manual windlass. Lynn will man the helm and ease forward as I haul the chain in by hand over hand. It feels good on my arms and shoulders to pull the chain in. Watch your posture and form! When we are "straight up and down" I'll engage the windlass It might be easier and faster with an electric, but hell if I had wanted easy I would have stayed home!

This topic has been a slippery slope and a source for arguments for as long as I have been boating. I think that you are the one and only expert on the bottom conditions where you do your boating. You have the advantage of carrying basically two primary anchors so even somewhat different conditions can be handled.

In out area I don't know of anyone that uses a Rocna, never actually seen one on a boat here on the North Coast. Our bottom is primarily soft sand, mud and sometimes grass. The old standard Danforth is by far the most popular, CQR and Bruce (claw style) are on some of the newer boats. We have used Bruce, Danforth and Fortress with great success over the years. I changed over the IP to a Bruce primary, Danforth secondary with a chain/rope rode for each. We actually use very little chain (12' on each) because other than for weight it really isn't need to prevent chafe. That works perfectly for us.

I advise to consider the bottom conditions and research the anchor that works best. As far as chain, the more chain, the more weight you carry. Use what works best for your conditions!

When we bought our IP 35 it had a 22 pound Lewmar anchor, and looked to be unused on a 1990 boat. Prior to buying the IP we chartered in a variety of locations and sea bottoms. Charter boats from my experience have cheap and light anchors.

The last time we were in the Windward Islands, it was nothing to make 4-5 attempts to get the anchor to stick. I was taking it personally, until I watched people with a lot more experienced than I were go through the same drill.

I swore I would get a decent anchor. So far the Rocna 55 pound anchor is more than decent. It sticks the first time, every time. Good gear can make things simple. Anchoring has become less of a mystery that it used to be.

You also sleep better.

DW

Ground tackle on our IP380 is a 33 lb Bruce primary and similar size spade as secondary. Based of the discussions here, I plan on upgrading to a Rocna 25 (55 lb) as the primary. Any suggestions as to which of the current anchors would be the best as a secondary. Thanks.

An option to the Rocna, our primary is a 46 lb. Ultra Anchor on the IP370. It sets very quickly and really digs in. As long as we give it proper rode, it has held in all blows. They have a convenient sizing chart at: www.quickline.us/anchorselect.html

We have an IP445 which, according to Rocna's website, should have either the 33kg or 40kg anchor. We're considering the Rocna for when we do go offshore. I know I can download a sizing guide from Rocna (basically to build a cardboard cutout of the anchor) but I'm wondering if anyone has any comments or issues with the Rocna on the IP bowsprit. Any known issues with the fit on the rollers? Or issues with having a second anchor up there at the same time?

I'd appreciate any input people have - especially from those with on-hand experience with how the Rocna fits.

Thanks

Just got a Rocna 33 for our 465. The sizing guide certainly puts the 465 in the weight and length brackets of the Rocna 33. I will let everyone know how it works out

Hi Leonard,

We also have the Rocna 33 for our IP440. It's a great anchor and has never let us down even in some blustery and exposed places. The sizing is right for the 440/460 and sits nicely on the anchor rollers. Enjoy!

Best wishes
Jonathan

Good info here. I'm curious, we have a 40 and will be buying a Rocna for our primary. The Rocna sizing tool has us on the upper edge of the 55# (25kg) model and we're planning to upsize to the 73# (33kg). We've talked to a few owners that did this and it fits the roller fine, given the we have gran plans to cruise far and wide the added size seems prudent. The real question is if you where doing this and sizing the windlass accordingly, which chain would you go for? We're waffling between G4/G43 5/16" and 3/8". Been leaning towards the 3/8" but would welcome thoughts from full time cruisers.

Thanks,
Erin

So - just read your post. Seeing as how we have nearly identical boats (I'm on IP38-015), I read that our boats are in the upper edge of the 44# anchor (ROCNA 20), which led me to purchase 1 size up - the 55# (ROCNA 25) model. I am happy with the purchase - but even at that size it appears a bit oversized... YMMV. We've been on the hook rafted up with another big boat in a decent blow (25, gusting to 40) and the anchor held well in New England Muck. Not trying to stir up anything - I could very well be mistaken in how I read the chart...

Regardless, we went with the bigger 3/8 G4 - ROCNA sizing chart agrees with this size chain.

Be warned - this may be an IP38 class issue only, but with our 110FT of 3/8G4 and the bigger anchor, our permanent trim shifted forward by about an inch. Water line and boot top corrections will follow when budget affords it.

Hayden,
No expert here. Just curious - Why recommend a primary anchor 2 sizes up from what the manufacturer recommends for an 11 ton boat - the same anchor happily and effectively used by boats displacing 50% more, as noted by previous posts? Prudent caution? Some unspoken mariner's rule? Imperical evidence of anchors dragging? Again, just curious. I thought I was being prudent going a size up on my anchor....

Thanks!

So Hayden if you where doing the 73 lb on the 40, would you stick with the 5/16" chain? Rocna actually recommends 3/8" for both the 55lb and 73lb.

The way I see it the 73 is 1 size larger than Rocna's recommendation. She's just over 12m (moves to 14m on the chart) and I personally don't believe IPs listing of 22,800 lbs and when outfitted for cruising figure 25,000 is probably even conservative (12 tons and change). Brings me in just under the 13t listed for the 55#, so we're going with the 73 lb. Not saying that's right or wrong for everyone else, but since we'll be living aboard full time and cruising beginning next year, moving up a size will help me sleep better.

Since Rocna recommends the same size chain for both 55 and 73 lb models, I don't see that as a big sacrifice. But I am concerned about having to carry so much 3/8" chain...

Thanks Hayden, that's my thoughts exactly. My real concern/question at this point is the chain. Would like at least 250' and since Rocna recommends 3/8" G40 chain for both the 55 and the 73lb that's 375 lbs of chain. Have been considering going with G70 to save 125 lbs (by dropping to 5/16" but the windlass folks recommend against G70 since it doesn't take shock loads well.

It's always a compromise...always

Some thoughts about the anchor, anchor rode discussion.

1. The shear on SS bolts is about 60% of the tensile strength. So the 4 5/16 SS bolts which hold a bow cleat and are in single shear and will fail at about 14,000 # so assuming that the cleat doesn't come out of the deck with the backing plates long before you reach this limit, your bolt shear is the upper limit, about 14K. Anything beyond this is over kill. I personally don't think that the cleat will hold 14K #s. ( Think - - 14,000 lbs is about three chevy suburbans hanging from the cleat.) Breaking strength on 5/16 ht G4 is 11,600, 3/8 ht G4 is 16,600. So why 5/16 ht? Yes I know about the catenary effects, but as practical matter 250 ft of chain goes iron bar tight between 40 and 50 knots. So this weight doesn't give you any snubbing when it really counts.

2. On another point, Assuming that a 35-40' IP has a frontal area of about 10 sq meters and a drag coef. of 1.0, at 100 knots wind the wind load is about 110 kilos - - 2500lbs give or take. That's the reason that cleats don't come out of decks. Wave action is what provides the serious load and shock. It is really about how well the anchor is set ( and what the bottom is ) and how well the snubber works. In serious conditions the snubber should be 1.5 times the length of the boat, and it should be very elastic. 3 strand nylon, 30% stretch before failure, 9/16 - 5/8. 9-12K tensile.

3. I would invest in two anchors, and wouldn't go really heavy with either, because they are a pain in day to day use. If you are deploying anchors before a storm you can arrange them for the wind change, in my opinion this is better than counting on your one big anchor to reset. I am not prepared to argue about anchor types except to say that currently the Rocna is currently very popular. We have two 55 deltas on our 40. One on 300' of 5/16 ht and the other on 40' 5/16 ht and 250' of nylon. With two anchors you have a real backup if one gets lost. Chain because it doesn't cut on coral or rocks. We use a 25' snubber day by day and have a 55' snubber for serious work.

4. Sailors will always argue about anchors - except when they are discussing heads.

George
S/V Delicia
IP 40 1995

We purchased our IP 370. Last week (after listening to Hayden) I switched to a Rocna 55#. It fits our anchor roller perfectly. I also added the Mantus Anchor Mate which is a stout SS bracket that fits on the roller bolt and aligns the Rocna blade to center and holds it tight. We sailed in 30 knots last weekend and the anchor didn't budge. Installing the Mantus device is a quick add on. It requires a longer roller axle bolt and several SS washers(both West Marine) to clear the side of the the IP bowsprit. Check out the photo.
After installing the Rocna I read Fatty Goodlander's Creative Anchoring. He has a Rocna 55# on Ganesh and swears by it. Ganesh is a 30,000 lb. full keel heavy cruiser. Really, he must mention the Rocna 15 times in the book and criticizes the problems with other designs. He says he has no commercial interest in the company. Fatty knows. He's been around the world twice. I recommend the book. He's a very colorful character.
Rick Stewart
s/v Moon Eye; IP370 #21
Kemah, Texas