Fin vs Full keel

I've been sailing for 33 years. I've owned Catalina 27 and 34. Ready to sell the business and retire. Always wanted to own an IP. But two questions I would like owners to answer (not a sales or manufacturers rep). I need honest opinions. First - how much of a performance degradation can I expect with a full keel. I'm looking at the IP495 vs similar fin keel (Jeanneau). I've always felt the IP would give me a sturdy, dependable boat, but the last few comments I've seen say they sail like a snail. Can someone give me the straight scoop? Am I looking at a 1/2 knot, 1 knot, or more in speed difference?

Second, with the hard times of late, and the sale of IP I wonder if the quality and attention to detail is still there, or are they just trying to turn a profit?

Please, any feedback will be greatly appreciated. This is a big investment for us and I don't want to make a mistake.

Thanks in advance,

WarEagle

Hi Brad, I read the same comments about IPs being slow prior to buying an ‘89 IP35. I can give anecdotal evidence to the contrary after sailing the boat for two years. Shortly after buying Panacea we invited friends who sail an older Tartan of 40-45 feet. They have several years experience sailing full time and are fairly accomplished sailors. They were astounded at how well our boat sailed having heard similar comments.

Second is actually first hand experience sailing in 12 to 15 knots on a beam reach with a Beneteau 331 with new sails (vs our old ones), a several thousand pound weight advantage, piloted by experienced sailors as a buddy boat. We not only stayed with them but passed them!

So don’t buy the slow boat nonsense you read. My hunch is those that make the comments don’t have experience with an IP.

The IP will have plenty of speed and will be much more comfortable when the breeze picks up and seas build.

Buy the IP.

Asking this discussion group about IPs is a little like asking the Pope about Catholics - - but with that disclaimer.

Here is my experience. We have owned a 350 with a roller main - sailed her about 15k nm. We now own an IP 40 with a fully battened main, - sailed her about 25k nm. We had/have fixed props. Observations:

Never have we felt a lack of speed. Yes - in light air and calm water we can't compete with light fin keel boats, especially close to the wind.

But in real ocean sailing we do well with all other cruising boats. On long passages we carry sail more effectively, we carry more load, and continue comfortably when others either give up or won't go out.

The stay sail is a thing of beauty, way different than a deeply reefed genoa. It actually works as a sail. When you reef the center of effort moves into the center of the boat where you need it in heavy air. We sail comfortable in 28-30 knots. The auto pilot had a lot less work to do because the boat tracks so well. We sailed a sister ship to our 350 non stop from Long Island to Norfolk in November in 30-38 knots - yes it was rough and wet - but the boat performed well. Nothing broke, nothing moved, no cabinets or doors opened or jammed, the boat didn't "work" it was quiet inside. We were very heavy and the green water came over the house a few times, but the water stayed in the ocean and didn't get in the boat - - just no drama.

The IP 40 is the same - only more. We get there at the same time or ahead of others that we travel with. Often we sail alone because others don't want to go in 20-25 knots, when it is 4-6'. We are whimps really, but the boat makes it easy.

George
S/V Delicia

Brad,

You are asking the wrong question, if you are in the market to buy a cruising sailboat. If you are serious about doing offshore sailing/cruising, then you should not consider a fin keeled/spade rudder sailboat, and speed is not an important issue. Primary concerns are ruggedness, safety, sea-handling, heavy weather/seas handling, etc. Cruising the tropics, It is much more important to have a boat that can go aground on a coral reef and not rip off the keel or hole the boat. In heavy seas, you dont want a spade rudder that can be bent or drop off (it happens more frequently than it should even on expensive well-built boats). You also want a deep keeled bilge in your boat that can take on a lot of water before you flood the interior and start to sink. (I was on a Sabre 38, a very fast boat with a 6inch deep bilge, that sprung a leak offshore and quickly had water up to the settee seats. The interior was pretty much trashed by the salt water. That much water in my 380 would probably not go over the floorboards. )
If you want a cruising boat, then you want an Island Packet - there are only a few other comparable candidates. If you want a fast, manueverable in the marina boat, there are lots of options, but none are ideal for cruising. Manufacturers will tout their boats for offshore, but they never talk about what happens when things go wrong.
Meanwhile, to answer your exact question I can relate my experience traveling with 12 boats to Bermuda. In good weather and light winds the fin keeled boats left me behind, sailing about 1kt faster. On the return transit in 30-35kts of wind and 6-8ft seas, I left them behind averaging about 1kt faster. Having a code-zero and/or drifter for light winds is a good idea to help light winds sailing. Remember, cruisers/gentlemen dont sail to weather. If you are retired, wait for wind to shift .
Mark Lawrence IP380-132 Tides Inn

Mark, thanks for the information. Its exactly what I wanted to know. And I'm definitely a cruiser not a racer. 1 to 2 knots really doesn't mean too much to me. And dependability is of the utmost importance. All of the responses have been very positive and are helping me in the decision process. I have to be careful not to let the excitement overcome logic. Thank you for your insights.

I have a 485 which we have raced and cruised.

Last week end we did some dualing with a sporty 45 fin keeler. This was a typical relatively light 45 footer, not with flashy racing sails but never the less light, well set up, deep fin and good helm.

The wind was around a F5.

Up wind she was a little quicker, I would guess around 0.5 knot. She had a first reef, whereas we were carry full sails. A first reef was about right for her, and we were at the point of thinking baout sheding a little sail, but also about right.

Downwind we very quickly left her behind pulling out a signficant gap after not very long.

In short the 485 performs very well off the wind and I would guess would give most other crusing boats of a similiar size a good run, whereas on the wind a fin keeler of similar size will pull away with perahps and extra knot of speed under her keel.

Of course you will be having a glass of wine on the IP and not spilling a drop whereas your friends may well have put the wine away. They may arrive a few hours before you but I know who will feel better rested and more relaxed when they pull into port.